Resource NU Viability Rankings

Status
Not open for further replies.
Welcome to the Pokemon Scarlet and Violet NeverUsed Viability Rankings!

In this thread, we, as a community, will be ranking every single justifiably usable Pokemon into "tiers" ranking their viability in the metagame. You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are viable in NU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes, but the ultimate decision will be handled by NU Viability Rankings council vote during each slate of rankings -- more on this later.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each NU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Altaria can be ranked in the A- tier as a supportive presence, Hoopa can be ranked in the A- as an offensive presence, and Chansey can be ranked in the A- tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.

Finally, there will be a council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. Please note that your posts still very much matter and will be factored in to what we discuss and the discussions themselves. This thread is nothing without the posters and every informed opinion that is shared is considered a valuable contribution in my eyes, so do not hesitate to post if you know the metagame well and understand the forum rules. The council currently consists of the users below, but note that NU will be trying to incorporate a rotating council to bring new and diverse ideas and points of view to the tier.

S Rank

:florges: Florges
:gligar: Gligar
:salazzle: Salazzle
:scyther: Scyther

A Rank

A+

:avalugg: Avalugg
:bruxish: Bruxish
:copperajah: Copperajah
:goodra: Goodra
:hariyama: Hariyama
:jolteon: Jolteon

A

:articuno-galar: Articuno-Galar
:chansey: Chansey
:glastrier: Glastrier
:heracross: Heracross
:klefki: Klefki
:rotom-mow: Rotom-Mow
:shaymin: Shaymin
:tauros-paldea-blaze: Tauros-Paldea-Blaze
:toxicroak: Toxicroak

A-

:bronzong: Bronzong
:decidueye: Decidueye
:dudunsparce: Dudunsparce
:electrode-hisui: Electrode-Hisui
:hoopa: Hoopa
:mesprit: Mesprit
:palossand: Palossand
:piloswine: Piloswine
:qwilfish: Qwilfish
:tatsugiri: Tatsugiri

B Rank

B+


:Abomasnow: Abomasnow
:ditto: Ditto
:lycanroc: Lycanroc
:mismagius: Mismagius
:sandslash-alola: Sandslash-Alola

B

:altaria: Altaria
:bombirdier: Bombirdier
:coalossal: Coalossal
:drifblim: Drifblim
:froslass: Froslass
:magneton: Magneton
:muk: Muk
:orthworm: Orthworm
:persian-alola: Persian-Alola
:sandaconda: Sandaconda
:sandslash: Sandslash
:skuntank: Skuntank

B-

:arboliva: Arboliva
:articuno: Articuno
:floatzel: Floatzel
:hippopotas: Hippopotas
:houndstone: Houndstone
:indeedee: Indeedee
:naclstack: Naclstack
:passimian: Passimian
:poliwrath: Poliwrath
:primeape: Primeape
:qwilfish-hisui: Qwilfish-Hisui
:rotom: Rotom
:sneasel: Sneasel
:uxie: Uxie
:victreebel: Victreebel
:vikavolt: Vikavolt
:volbeat: Volbeat
:weezing: Weezing

C Rank

:cacturne: Cacturne
:golduck: Golduck
:golem: Golem
:ludicolo: Ludicolo
:lurantis: Lurantis
:morpeko: Morpeko
:oricorio-pau: Oricorio-Pa'u
:sableye: Sableye
:samurott: Samurott
:swanna: Swanna
:tauros: Tauros
:vivillon: Vivillon
:whiscash: Whiscash

Please avoid any one-liners or anything along the lines of "Why isn't x ranked as y it's really good!" and please note that this list will be continuously updated as the tier is developed; this is not a final list!!

---

From now on, we'll start publishing our votes to make the process more transparent. Tuthur abstained from this council vote. To see everyone else's votes and what we voted to UR, check out the link below. I'll post reasonings as soon as possible!
October 20th, 2023: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...rJfVenYyO1FcnNj19jxglr3xvg/edit#gid=498479816
 
Last edited by a moderator:

poh

<?>
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Good job to the vr team. These initial rankings are fairly accurate and depict the meta well. Some noms!


-> A/A-

Ren-chon 's favorite mon unfortunately doesn't belong in the same category as Salazzle and Shaymin. Running this also means you're not running Goodra. Though forcing out Goodra and having a pretty good typing both offensively and defensively can get it pretty far despite the poor bulk. Forcing mons out with the high bp stabs, spinning and then going for tera + np can get you the edge in games, especially if their scarfer is bruxish. The general utility it can offer with those strong dracos deserve it being in the a ranks, just not one rank away from S.



Sand is good! Personally I think it's a B+/A- playstyle. Especially Houndstone on sand is terrifying. The other sweepers find themselves a bit more counterplay.


-> B+

I haven't seen this mon since the dlc dropped lol? Does it just do coil stuff now? As a rocker we have like 5 better options, the other ground types offer more in general. I even think the bulky wincon role is done better by mons like dudun, grimm or worm nowadays. Seems like sandas best days as the number 1 mon are over.


-> B+

Being the 5th? best fighting type doesn't rly help Passimians case for A ranks. We have better scarfers, cb just seems outclassed by heracross and other breakers.

-> B+

Did this rly get to A- cause of that elias vote lmao. The other votes make more sense, just drop it to B+.
 
Ok I might be an enthusiast but I'm shocked my boy Typhlosion

Normal Sprite


is not even ranked.

Yeah it's about viability and in a meta where Goodra is king, Altaria and Tatsu are very presents and you are likely to face Bruxish and Sand he isn't in the best spot. But it's worthy to clean do field to Scarf/Specs Tera Fire Eruption.

I'm unable to see him worst ranked than pokemons like Lurantis , Skuntank and Victreebel.

He is a hard to use in a not favorable meta but is so strong that is worthy so B/B-

The only other mon i drastically disagree is Qwilfish-Hisui

Normal Sprite

This little is a monster of support i has different match ups that goes super well than the Jhoto version.

It has a better match up in to Roton Mow, Jolteon , Scyter, Shayming , Bruxish , Bronzong and Grim.

And has worst in to Salazzle , Tatsu , Hariama , Heracros, Sandaconda , Taurus Blaze , Toxicroak and Sand Teams.

Again Sand is somewhat common but isn't predominant . So ok i can accept the other version is optimal and agree it's A

So here would be more acceptable A-/B+

Other than those 2 nothing else jump me to the eye so nice job!
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
:tatsugiri: -> A-
It's been very overrated since it dropped imo. On paper it has a high threat level because speed + power boosting is dangerous af, but then you realize its bulk is super limiting and prevents it from ever getting to hit that peak. Even then, it's still revenge killed by a good amount of the common Choice Scarf guys in the format, i.e. Bruxish, Paldean Tauros, and Shaymin and vulnerable to Toxicroak's and Grimmsnarl's Sucker Punch without Terastallizing. Choice item sets have gotten a bit more use lately, but I've been largely unconvinced they're worth using, especially when it comes to Choice Specs in comparison to Goodra.

:mismagius: -> A/A-
I think Mismagius is disgustingly underrated on the current VR and needs to rise quite a bit. Its set versatility is amazing and lends it to many different styles of play. Want to use a hazards-centric balance build? NP sets are great and SubNP in particular is great if you want to use Toxic Spikes. Need some more speed on offense? Choice Scarf sets are quite helpful and provide a lot of utility between what it offers defensively and moves like Trick/Destiny Bond/Memento. Sure Copperajah is a roadblock, but cmon not like the tier lacks meaningful ways to pressure it lol

:passimian: -> B+/B
like poh, I have no idea why Passimian is rated so highly. It's been used very sparingly in high-level play and is just not as good as the other Fighting-types. Bruxish offers pretty direct competition too as a pivot given the FAR superior Speed tier (faster than +1 Tatsu/Hera, more consistent rkiller of Jolteon). I see little reason to use Passimian in this meta and it should not be in the A ranks fs.

:gligar: -> A+, :piloswine: -> A
I get poh's sentiments about Sandaconda, but I'd rather raise the other Ground-types because I still value Sandaconda quite a ton. Gligar is pretty clearly the cream of the crop; it's basically the NEW Sandaconda in that it team-checks your offensive core every time you encounter it. If your team is too physically biased, you're probably gonna struggle to break past it in spite of it lacking recovery. The utility movepool is just so deep and makes it malleable to your team's needs. Need Stealth Rock? It can do that. Already have a Stealth Rock setter? Spikes work instead. Need more pivoting? Yep. Item displacement? Yep. Better matchup into fat teams? Toxic and Taunt both work. It's super customizable and I've never seen it fail to put in work.

Piloswine might just be a beneficiary of this meta, but I think that needs to be reflected in the VR. It's a Jolteon counter (or the closest thing to one) and has a fantastic offensive profile in this metagame due to Bronzong/Orthworm being relatively low usage. Not much else to say here because the niche is mostly around "I wall Jolteon and support bulky offense better than just about anything" so yea.

e: also move :bruxish: to A+ LOL it's the best scarfer in the tier and is a huge reason teams NEED to have tera dark on their builds because they'll just get run down by tera psychic psyfangs otherwise. please stop the clownery
 
Last edited:

Oathkeeper

"Wait!" he says, do I look like a waiter?
is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
First nom in forever so here we go.........

:bruxish: --> A+
We're all thinking the same thing, what switches into this thing safely? Not a lot comes to mind aside from C-ranked Cacturne, Avalugg, and Houndstone I guess. Sure other stuff like Altaria, Goodra, and a few others can do so, but they're taking a huge risk by "hoping" to avoid a Psychic Fangs or Wave Crash because if guessed wrong, Bruxish 2HKOes the result. I'm sure there's gotta be another mon or so that I'm forgetting but I'm calling it like I see it and I'm seeing that prepping for Bruxish in the builder may soon become (if not already is) problematic.
 
:bruxish: A -> A+

Bruxish is the single best scarfer in the tier. It packs an obcene amount of power with its STABs in Strong Jaw boosted Psychic Fangs and Wave Crash. Furthermore, Flip Turn allows it to become an insane momentum grabber by abusing 50/50s forced by its unresisted dual STAB. It even possesses great coverage options in Ice Fang, Poison Fang and Crunch, each complimenting its arsenal even further by providing utility and/or coverage to one shot or cripple wannabe pivots like Uxie and Altaria. It's not limited to Choice Scarf, even: it can run a plethora of sets ranging SD to Choice Band. Bruxish's strain on the teambuilder and sheer breaking prowess and utility cannot be understated and, in the current metagame, it clearly sits above the rest of the A tier.

:persian-alola:C -> C+/B-
Persian-Alola stands out as an incredible utility mon in the current metagame. Its wide arsenal of utility moves, with options ranging from Taunt and Parting Shot to Switcheroo, Thunder Wave and Knock Off, makes it an incredibly versatile threat that can fulfill many utility roles for teams. It especially stands out as one of the few checks to Bruxish the tier possesses, thanks to its incredible ability in Fur Coat. My favourite set right now is Choice Scarf, which mantains its versatility as a bulky utility pivot by spamming Parting Shots and Knock Offs while neutralizing some of the metagame's top threats in Bruxish, Houndstone, and the snow abusers by either clicking Foul Play or Switcheroo or at least reducing their damage output with Parting Shot to allow a partner in the back to live a few hits more easily. Definitely give it a try as it's an incredible utility pick right now.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
:chansey: -> A :avalugg: -> A-

Chansey defines the non-offensive teams right now. It's one of the few Salazzle stoppers the tier has (despite it being vulnerable to Encore) and keeps just about every other special wallbreaker at bay (there are a lot of these D:!). Between all of Salazzle, Goodra, Florges, and Jolteon, NU has an abundance of elite special attackers that don't really overlap a ton in defensive counterplay; Chansey giving you a means to stifle them all is super valuable, and I think it warrants a major rise. Just look at its SCL usage as of late for confirmation---something you might also need to do for Avalugg. Avalugg has gotten a lot of use lately too for similar reasons to Chansey, but with regards to physical attackers. I mentioned this awhile back when I did a personal VR: Avalugg retains (retained) NU viability because Terastallizing patches up the issues Ice has as a defensive typing. You can turn into a Ghost-, Ground-, or Poison-type, for example, and effectively serve as a stop-all physical wall that doubles as entry hazard removal, and Avalugg isn't even passive to boot. With Scyther, Swords Dance Decidueye, and Toxicroak all at the top of the tier, it helps to have a Pokemon that stops them all in their tracks. So, why am I voting Avalugg lower than Chansey? Part of it is reliance on Terastallizing---although not a huge detriment, you can witness Avalugg fail to hold up against some of the physical wallbreakers when it can't drop its weakness to Fighting. The bigger reason, though, is...

:glastrier: -> A

Glastrier does give Avalugg a run for its money. It's more bulky overall and is far more threatening late-game with its Swords Dance set being more reliable at running down teams and not getting walled by a clutch Terastallization from your opponent. It can fit on the same style of teams that the common "ChanseyLugg" core features on, but instead of Avalugg being your hazard removal, it's often a Defog Scyther instead. Another big reason for Glastrier's success is the prevalence of hyper offense; as SCL as shown, hyper offense often is incapable of taking out Glastrier without having to sacrifice teammates for chip damage against it. Multiple games have resulted in someone foddering off all of one Pokemon just to not lose to Glastrier because it's so god damn bulky and stops everything on these archetypes not named Salazzle in a pinch.

There are other changes the VR could stand to make, i.e. Salazzle up to S, Sandaconda down to like B or B-, Gligar up to A+, Goodra down to A+... but I'll wait to comment on those until later.
 
1699448646864.png
-> A+

I think it's universal agreed that Bruxish is easily the best scarfer in NU. Getting access to Flip Turn makes it a lot more difficult to check since it can just pivot out from a bad matchup. It also helps that with Grimmsnarl departed from NU means spamming Tera Psychic psyfangs is going to be a dangerous threat if they don't have a Tera dark user.

1699448165270.png
-> S

Florges is a excellent Fairy-type. The utility sets are excellent for checking the Dragon and Fighting-type such as Goodra, Hariyama, and Heracross. While the CM sets can snowball a game. While choice specs sets are strong they are way too much inconsistent since Florges movepool is limited and the Utility and CM sets are just simplely better for their consistency. So that's why I think Florges deserves the S rank.

1699448677735.png
-> A-

Klefki is a great new addition to the tier. Having priority Spikes and Thunder Wave are going to annoying to handle. Also the CM + Iron Defense + Stored Power sets are going to be nasty due to how easy it can snowball a game.

1699448744214.png
-> A

While Rotom-Mow is a great scrafer; however, Rotom-Mow has many problems that really holds it back from being a elite pokemon. The main problem is both of its stabs gets walled by Jolteon and Goodra making it a lot more difficult for Rotom-Mow to revenge killed. It doesn't help that it faces a lot of competition as a Choice Scarfer, since Bruxish is a faster pivot that can threatening late games with Tera psychic psyfangs. Rotom-Mow is still a great scarfer but there are so many problems that hold Rotom-Mow back from being elite.
 
:persian-alola: -> B-/B

This guy is criminally underrated. It's a natural Dark type which is sorely needed in the tier with the recent departure of Grimmsnarl. It packs great physical bulk thanks to Fur Coat, backed by an amazing speed tier. It's an excellent support pokemon that can fulfill a great anti-lead role as it outspeeds most common leads and can prevent them from setting Stealth Rocks with Taunt and can spread item removal with Knock Off. It can also run Switcheroo with a choice item effectively. It also gets Parting Shot, one of the best pivoting moves in the tier, allowing it to bring in checks to the opponent's pokemon much more easily. Thunder Wave is a decent option as well. But the icing on the cake is Foul Play. The opponent's Scyther got a Swords Dance boost and is ready to sweep? Persian-A outspeeds and OHKO's with Foul Play. Decidueye? Foul Play, gone. Hariyama just got a Belly Drum? Foul Play, gone, even if it's at full HP, and +6 Bullet Punch isn't even 2HKOing without Terastalizing. It's not without it's flaws of course, I would say the two main things are it has poor special bulk which can easily be exposed by Salazzle and Jolteon which both outspeed it, and it's generally not offensively threatening on its own in matchups where it can't abuse Foul Play. But as a supportive pivoter, it's amazing. I run Heavy Duty Boots and Tera Ghost and lead with it in 95% of games and can hardly think of instances where it didn't deliver. C tier is simply too low for it.
 
Rises
:avalugg: C -> A+
For too long I wrote this pokemon off because of the initial bad typing. As rabia said this pokemon is defining the fat of our tier right now and all teams need to be considering how they are going to break a chansey/lugg core. Late game tera on this pokemon can shift what the opponent needs to beat it, and in a longer game, they may have already sacrificed that piece. It’s one of the best removal in the tier and it isn’t passive with a few different options for strong attacks like EQ and Body Press in addition to ice stab. Lastly, setup sets with ID or Curse can become very problematic for teams to break as the game goes long. The only reason I’m not putting at S is because I want to wait a bit longer to tame any recency bias i could have.

:skuntank: B- -> B+
We lost our #1 dark type and we need a replacement. Skunk finds itself conveniently trying to fill that gap with its useful typing, being a grounded poison and also a dark type that threatens and keeps Florges out. Sucker Punch, Taunt, Toxic, and Toxic Spikes give you a cariety

:ditto: B- -> B+
Ditto is great on the fat teams to limit the opponents ability to setup to break their cores. It also serves as a barrier to Snow and HO. All of these team structures are quite strong right now, so Ditto deserves recognition for how it does in all these matchups.

:glastrier: B -> A
Glast is a major a fantastic fat breaker as well as something useful for forcing a trade on HO. Very little is able to OHKO this pokemon and as a result it very frequently is claiming 1 or 2 Pokémon. It’s not the best at using Tera, as it’s too slow to usually get more out of it than a single extra turn, but with that extra turn you may be able to get a key KO for the rest of your team.

:chansey: B -> A
This is a vital piece on the fat teams that we have been seeing a lot of lately. It’s passive sure, but it’s able to make up for that with its insane longevity. I don’t put this higher because I think that florges

:coalossal: B -> A-
We are starved for removal at the moment and coalossal does it okay enough. It also has utility of checking the S tier pokemon, so it gets a boost for that.

:decidueye: B+ -> A
Ghost stab has been threatening in the tier for a while and just gets better with the departure of Grimmsnarl. Fewer dark-types in the pool makes clicking that much easier. SD sets have proven to be fantastic on HO, where it’s able to clean with +2 shadow sneak, or break early with poltergeists

:electrode-Hisui:B+ -> A-
Just a small boost for this guy. Not needing to Tera to give big damage to the ground types is useful and Twave/Foul play just give interesting utility to a team.

:piloswine: A- -> A
I voted all the grounds to the same tier the first time around because I didn’t really know yet how I felt about them in comparison to one another. Pilo has proven to be the best BO ground, able to dish out very difficult to wall stab moves alongside a strong priory move to pick off common threats like scyther.
Thick Fat also gained more value with snow as now it’s a check to that as well.

:gligar: A -> A+
I think Gligar is the best ground type we have. Its ability to be a solid fighting type check alongside neutral damage to etrode gives a team a lot of role compression. It has flexible defensive evs which mean it can be form fitted to your teams needs. Its moveset options are very varied so your opponent won’t always know what to expect. It pairs nicely with chansey and lugg on the fat structure as well as offenses that want a pivot with utility.

:salazzle: A+ -> S
It’s time for Salazzle to rise to S; Florges’s arrival increases Salazzle value greatly as it gives you another reason to use it, since encore is amazingly useful for the Florges matchup. It also likes that Goodra is a bit worse now, facing both competition and a losing battle with Florges. Salazzle was already at the top of A+ and I feel that this shift just pushed it to the top.

Drops
:sandslash: B+ -> B
I don’t think sand is as good now as it was before. Snow provides stiff competition and the increased avalugg usage bodes poorly for the style. Sandslash doesn’t really do anything in the tier besides that, so it should be lower than lycanroc, who has use beyond sand sweeper in the tier.

:passimian: A- -> B+
Just a small drop for this now, but it could be greater. We just have better fighting types, simple as that. The utility of uturn and knock off is good but it’s just not enough at it’s low speed tier.

:altaria: A -> A-
Meta developments have been unkind to altaria, it’s a bit too passive and finds itself slightly not bulky enough to check certain threats. It doesn’t help that 2 of the key fighting types don’t care about wisp. Still it has removal and recovery, and that kind of utility is always desired.

:sandaconda: A -> A-
Just faces competition from the other ground types and doesn’t fit the roles quite as well as the others. Still, it’s coil sets are potent and unique in comparison to the others.

:jolteon: S -> A+
It’s just not as good as it was. Maybe I’m underselling it since I haven’t been using it a lot lately, but it’s bad physical bulk means you end up getting 2HKOd a lot of the time. It loses a lot of 1v1s so it’s value really is coming from being able to pivot.

:goodra: S -> A+
Florges gives goodra competition and a hard time. Draco meteor is no longer guaranteed damage in the tier. I think it’s still good and don’t agree with the drops that some people have been suggesting for it.

there’s other small changes but these were the big ones I felt like writing about.
 
VR Nom time!

:Mismagius: B+ -> A-
When I saw the addition of Slash-A to the tier and the rise of snow for a hot minute, I was lowkey missing Shao bc it was the Hail killer last gen, and I started scanning for Scarfers with that all-important 105 Speed tier, landing on Missy. At first, I was disappointed by its lack of damage due to it not having high power STABs and a boosting ability the way Bruxish does, but with some tinkering, I found that it can be devastatingly effective against weakened teams while retaining the ability to check snow abusers, namely Slash-A. Don't get me wrong, sometimes, Missy will let you down. The power is just not there to function as a breaker the way Bruxish can against healthier teams, thus Missy requires further support, hazards being especially helpful. Luckily, we're spoiled for hazard setters and starved for removal, so providing said support is pretty simple. Missy also has some things that Bruxish doesn't have, namely a Ground/Spikes immunity with Levitate, Trick, and the coveted ability to Spin block via its Ghost typing. I am by no means saying that Missy is better than Bruxish, but I think the things that make it different as a Scarfer warrant a slight rise. Keep in mind I haven't even mentioned its other sets, namely Nasty Plot.

:Bruxish: A -> A+
There's nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, this mon is really good. Makes me miss having actually good water immunes, speaking of...

:Tatsugiri: A+ -> A/A-
Look, I get that we have like no consistent hazard removal, but every time I build, I would rather play Boots spam or build around a Superman core than put this mon in as hazard removal. This mon is so close to being good, but it is just soooo frail despite its good typing. I have never once seen this mon, either on my team or my opponents team, do anything besides maybe getting one spin off. Good for you, you got rid of my hazards, too bad that my setters are pretty much always going to outlast your Tatsu. Even as a breaker this mon is disappointing, bc if you run Tatsu as an offensive mon, then you aren't running Goodra, who's going to be better in that role 9 times out of 10, and stacking them compromises your dedfensive abilities. That just leaves it as a spinner, and in that role, it is too frail. Just because we have no good spinner doesn't mean we can artificially rise the ones we have, it's just false advertising.

:Persian-Alola: B- -> B+/A-
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I don't think Catalisador went far enough in this nom. This mon has earned my respect many times over. Cata does a good job explaining what this mon does in their post, I'll just add on that I prefer Boots over Scarf and tend to run Thunder Wave over Switcheroo as a result. This mon is just a great Dark type, and has become my go-to Bruxish check to keep my teams from getting obliterated late game by Psychic Fangs.

:Gligar: A -> A+/S?
Honestly, this mon is lowkey like top 3 in the tier imo. I struggle to justify not running it on any given team. This mon is so so versatile, if there is a hole in your team, there is a moderately high chance it's Gligar-shaped. Need a Ground type? Best in the tier, not even a contest. Hazards? It has all of them, take your pick. Physical check? Does that, doesn't even need investment to do it. Special check? You can EV it to do that to. Support? We've got U-turn and Knock in addition to hazards. Anti-setup? We've got Toxic. Bulky wincon? Slap SD in one of its slots and watch things drop to STAB Earthquake. Need longevity? A Spikes immunity is nearly as good as Roost in this tier. This mon can do everything and can very quickly become unkillable if you have the right support. I have nothing but good things to say abt this mon, hence why I could even see it taking up a spot in the S tier.

:Weezing: B -> B+
Do you hate Knock Off? Well, I have yet to find a better absorber since Grimm left the tier. Now, if that was all this mon could do, it wouldn't be a huge deal, but it's also a great fighting check bar Guts Hera, a Spikes immune (seeing a trend here?), a pain in the ass against defensive teams with Pain Split, Sludge Bomb poisons, and Will-o-Wisp burns, and a couple of other things besides. Not a world-beater, but I think deserving of a small rise since the support it provides is so valuable in the current meta.

:Bronzong: A -> A+
The Zong is back and better than ever. Don't get me wrong, Lazzle being so good can make running Zong a liability at times, but it will always perform on a team. Great blanket special check that, unlike Chansey, is difficult to wear down bc of, you guessed it, Levitate granting it a Spikes immunity (and a Rocks resist). Have I mentioned that I've been experimenting a lot with Superman teams? Anyways, this mon has a very flexible moveset, I personally run Rocks/IDBP/Night Shade to give the middle finger to special setup mons that so often can't touch Zong without a bunch of boosts. I would argue that Zong is the best Steel in the tier, though that probably comes from my personal vendetta against Copper. Also Tera is a huge boon for IDBP sets of all kinds, so give it a try.

That's all from me, thanks for reading!
 
Oh, if people are gonna be more active in the thread, might as well be the first to take a stab at the two main Snow team mons

sandslash-alola.png
A- or even A
I could see putting Alolan Sandslash in A, but A- seems like a fairly good starting point for right now. It's the reason Snow teams are even being used right now because of both it's speed + Swords Dance letting it outspeed most Scarf users in the tier and threaten to sweep or at the very least put enough holes in a team that something else can clean up. The combination of its defence + Snow's defence boost means that the realistic priority options in the tier can't effectively revenge kill it unless Sandslash is heavily worn down and also gives it more places it can afford to Swords dance up or even survive a hit during a sweep and keep going. Swords dance isn't the only thing it can do as it also has access to stuff like Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock, which is nice team role compression into a single Pokemon. Coverage is an issue for Sandslash though. Ice STAB is obvious, but then the choice between Low Kick/Iron Head (both hit stuff like Glastrier, Piloswine, and Avalugg. Iron Head gets Florges and does hit Piloswine noticeably harder, while Low Kick deals with Orthworm and other Alolan sandslash, plus handles Coalossal if you run Knock Off), and Earthquake/Knock Off (Earthquake hits Tauros and both Qwilfish, as well as cleanly OHKOes Salazzle and Toxicroak unboosted. Knock Off handles Bronzong and cleanly OHKOes Bruxish unbooosted, as well as provide utility through item removal). Still, despite this, Alolan Sandslash is still a great Pokemon that deserves to be somewhere in the A ranks

460.png
B or B+
At the very least, Abomasnow needs to go above fucking baby hippo. It's still not a great Pokemon at all, especially with needing to run Icy Rock in order to really facilitate Snow teams, but it's still definitely worth it. Being able to just throw out Blizzard whenever is definitely nice, plus it has access to Aurora Veil, which can facilitate ridiculous setup and sweep opportunities, or at the very least let other Pokemon on the team survive stuff they shouldn't generically. The Snow Defence boost also lets Abomasnow survive surprisingly well against some Pokemon alongside the resistances its typing gives. Tera Ground also is a nice thing for letting Abomasnow get rid of it's Stealth Rock weakness if you need it to come in more often during a game, but does sadly mean it loses the defence boost from Snow, so there's some risk there if you blow it early or at the wrong time, Overall, while Abomasnow might not be all that great, what it enables is noticeably better IMO then what Sand has to offer right now, so it at the very least deserves to be over baby Hippo in the rankings, if not two points above

Those were my two main nominations, but a few others are:

beartic.png
B or even B-
Beartic is a kinda weird one to rank? I fully respect that it hits hard as fuck, having used it myself, and it works fairly well as a way to wear down and blow past what checks and stuff Alolan Sandslash has so it can clean up, which makes it a great partner on more HO spam type Snow teams with a Choice Band and Adamant, but outside of that specific team build, idk if it holds up that well? Alolan Sandslash at the very least hits 251 Speed with a Jolly nature outside of Snow, which is a relatively high target to hit for more defensive Mons and slower offensives ones, and in Snow, it outspeeds most Choice Scarf users in the tier. But Beartic sits at a much worse 218 with Jolly, which doesn't let you outspeed much even under Snow (Passimian is the only major thing I can think of), so Adamant just makes more sense to lean into the breaker role better. It's definitely much better with having a faster fellow Slush Rush sweeper to capatalize on it's much better hole punching capabilities and should be ranked above C, but B is the absolute highest I can see it going because it feels locked to more HO leaning Snow teams and trying to use it outside that just kinda compromises your team structure too much to work very well. IDK, maybe Catalisador can tell me i'm dumb and wrong here lol

glastrier.png
A, A- at absolute least
Don't have much experience with ice horse, but I can concur with the others hyping it up that it needs to be higher then where it is currently. It just simply has absurd stats for the tier, letting it trade favorably in so many different matchups, setup and sweep through multiple Pokemon if not flat out whole teams, and shrug off weak hits super easily to switch in despite being weak to SR and hit by Spikes. It's Defence gets absolutely obscene under Snow if it's up (either on a more HO type Snow team or facing a Snow team), leading to calcs like this

252 Atk Tauros-Paldea-Blaze Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier in Snow: 186-222 (46.1 - 55%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm not really sure if Glastrier works that well outside HO style Snow teams to reliably take advantage of Snow (I againdefer to Cata on this), but with how relatively common it is to run into, it's still something you can take advantage of. I know in my team building, making sure my team can pressure Glastrier enough to not be super easy setup fodder is one of the big things I plan around, and i'm sure a lot of others with similar or higher skill level do as well. Just a fantastic, dangerous Mon all around that deserves to be in the A ranks

salazzle.png
S
Salazzle absolutely deserves an S rank. Encore is just an invaluable move to mess with the many different slower setup sweepers (especially Tera ones) that are running around, especially Florges, who Salazzle also can switch into easily outside of a Specs Psychic. Corrosion Toxic is a very spammable move that messes with a lot of switchins that otherwise could get good momentum on Salazzle, while Knock Off also capatilizes on the many switches Salazzle forces to also cripple teams and even lets it handle Hoopa. You can even run something like Nasty Plot in the last slot so Salazzle can act as a good late game sweeper and cleaner. A personal favourite of mine to use was SubToxic with Encore and Flamethrower as the sole attack and Leftovers. It does run into the issue of hazards fucking with Salazzle, especially due to our mediocre removal options, but the amount of games that it managed to Toxicstall out stuff it normally has troubles with was awlays a treat. Plus you can ever custom tailor the Tera option to give Salazzle better chances against whatever specific Mon you wanna fuck with the most. Just all around an amazing, maybe even too much for the tier Pokemon that deserves a spot in the S ranks
 
:Salazzle: A+ -> A+
Despite being one of the very few mons who provide somewhat reliable counterplay to the Blob table meta, Salazzle still suffers from being very fragile and reliant on boots. Often feels like it barely makes any progress before being relegated to a sack. Definitely more of a threat on paper than in practice.

:Tatsugiri: A+ -> A
People need to stop running this thing for hazard removal. Use specs or white herb. I do think a drop into A is warranted but no further. Tatsu is still a very potent breaker and late game cleaner and can run a variety of sets to tech matchups. White herb Tatsu + Heracross in partiuclar is a core I like running in this meta, being able to beatdown the fat spam very consistently.

:Bronzong: A -> S
Iron defense sets run this tier.

:Tauros-Paldea-Blaze: A -> A+
The second best fighting type we have after heracross, and only barely. Consistent progress maker and always a snowball threat.

:Glastrier: B -> A-
Suffers from the table usage but is a very good balance and HO breaker. Suffers from 4mss and reliance on boots and tera, as well as lack of recovery to offset its low speed. Will always be able to take hits and dish out damage but I find it hard to justify it any higher with the very obvious issues and how common Avalugg is.

Hail stuff -> B
Viable but inconsistent

:Rotom-Mow: A+ -> B
Use Htrode or base rotom

:Electrode-Hisui: B+ -> A
Very good speed control without needing scarf and always able to pivot around and force progress. Enjoys the reduced Goodra usage.

:Rotom: B- -> B+
A ghost that beats blob table gligar and can actually pivot.

:Poliwrath: B- -> B+
Resttalk circle throw knock can 1v6 fat teams and is a good momentum stopper for offense.

:Florges: New -> A+/S
Between both ranks for me. Very versatile and strong, setup sets are strong too.

:Klefki: New -> B+/A-
Whatever mon tbh. It's a nuisance to play against and good HO/offense disruptor but folds to bulky teams.
 

Oathkeeper

"Wait!" he says, do I look like a waiter?
is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Moderator
First nom in forever so here we go.........

:bruxish: --> A+
We're all thinking the same thing, what switches into this thing safely? Not a lot comes to mind aside from C-ranked Cacturne, Avalugg, and Houndstone I guess. Sure other stuff like Altaria, Goodra, and a few others can do so, but they're taking a huge risk by "hoping" to avoid a Psychic Fangs or Wave Crash because if guessed wrong, Bruxish 2HKOes the result. I'm sure there's gotta be another mon or so that I'm forgetting but I'm calling it like I see it and I'm seeing that prepping for Bruxish in the builder may soon become (if not already is) problematic.
Gonna add onto this more now after discussing it in the NU room. Aside from stuff like: using Flip Turn on the 1 Water Absorber (Tatsugiri, Cacturne's an unmon) we have, coverage moves (Ice Fang & Poison Fang for the aforementioned Cacturne), needing to run a faster scarfer just to outspeed its scarf set is not ideal for teams these days since the mons that could fill this role appear to be absurd (one notable mon being Jolteon), Missy, etc, and then there's constraint on teambuilding which goes hand in hand with that last point. You're almost forcing a scarf onto a mon that would rather use something else. Sure, Bruxish has more than the scarf set like Band and SD, but scarf is the most spammable and annoying. With these new points , the previous points I made, and combine them with the other advocates for nomming it to be ranked higher, I'd say it's S rank for sure. I'd even say suspect test it. But alas, this is for VR.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: poh

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
I'm gonna be honest, the Bronzong rise nominations make no sense to me x.x I don't think we can justify a rise for it because Bronzong just isn't showcasing any of the strengths it did in the previous generation in this new one. IronPress is getting a lot of mentions... for what? It doesn't actually beat teams down like people are stating it to. All of Encore Salazzle, Florges, Decidueye, and whatever wants to Terastallize into a Fighting-resistant Pokemon (Jolteon, Dudunsparce, Magneton all come to mind) give it trouble sweeping, and it really feels the loss of Vaporeon/Sylveon because you don't get that Wish + cleric support to sustain Rest sets anymore. You can still manage with like, Florges + Chansey + Bronzong I guess... but that's a lot of teamslots to support a pretty middling sweeper.

I believe Bronzong should be dropping on the VR instead of rising. It lacks the tour usage and tour success to justify calling it one of the better metagame staples, and it just doesn't fit on common structures very well at all.
 
I'm gonna be honest, the Bronzong rise nominations make no sense to me x.x I don't think we can justify a rise for it because Bronzong just isn't showcasing any of the strengths it did in the previous generation in this new one. IronPress is getting a lot of mentions... for what? It doesn't actually beat teams down like people are stating it to. All of Encore Salazzle, Florges, Decidueye, and whatever wants to Terastallize into a Fighting-resistant Pokemon (Jolteon, Dudunsparce, Magneton all come to mind) give it trouble sweeping, and it really feels the loss of Vaporeon/Sylveon because you don't get that Wish + cleric support to sustain Rest sets anymore. You can still manage with like, Florges + Chansey + Bronzong I guess... but that's a lot of teamslots to support a pretty middling sweeper.

I believe Bronzong should be dropping on the VR instead of rising. It lacks the tour usage and tour success to justify calling it one of the better metagame staples, and it just doesn't fit on common structures very well at all.
Alright, I'll go to bat to defend my nom. For the record, all of these are good points, and the tour usage especially does go a long way in the VR, but I also think that there are more factors at play than what's being mentioned here.

1) While we do lack the many great options for Wish-passing that Zong could so easily abuse when it was in the tier last gen, it is important to note that Florges is an excellent partner if you really want Wish support, which is something Rabia points out. I personally don't run it bc I feel Florges is a tad overrated (though definitely like minimum A rank mon), but that option is there. Additionally, the support that Zong needs as part of a defensive core isn't that steep in the current meta. Sure, a Knock absorber can be a pain to fit sometimes, but every team needs a plan to deal with Knock anyways, and besides that, you need some synergy with a PhysDef mon and probably other bulky mons... which is just basic teambuilding. I feel like a broken record, but mons don't exist in a vacuum they have 5 teammates.

2) A lot of Zong's power (opinion me, take that how you will), is Zong's role compression. Zong is relatively unique among Steels in its ability to function as both a hazard setter and a bulky wincon, the only other Steel that can do that realistically is Orthworm. In an actual game, that means you always make some amount of progress because at worst, you're setting Rocks, which is crucial team support, and being a SpDef steel, which is always good. We haven't hit the point like last gen where Zong is running dedicated IDBP sweeping sets, so you have an alternative mode that is effectively mandatory on every team anyways. IDBP can wait until late game where threats to the sweep like Lazzle have been removed and in the meantime, it's not like setting Rocks with a SpDef Steel is a waste of a teamslot.

3) If there is one point in this post I can't agree with, its the idea that Tera can invalidate sweeps. I mentioned in my post that I run Rocks/IDBP/Night Shade to deal with opposing bulky setup mons. With the exception of Dudun, the examples mentioned of mons that "beat" Zong by clicking Tera (or at least resist BP) are also mons that still lose on the spot if you choose to run the far more common Gyro Ball/Heavy Slam in the last slot. Basically every Tera fairy mon loses there bc you don't deal enough damage in return, Dudun is really the only mon I can think of that really hard beats Zong by clicking Tera. Also, I will point out that I just hate using Tera as an argument bc it all comes back to the toxic 50/50s we've been talking abt since the beginning of the gen, and at that point, I say just scrap the mechanic, but alas, Tera is the world we live in. [EDIT] Yes, I know there are Tera Poison and Tera Ghost mons to, but the points of team support, the options Zong has on its moveset (like Psychic for Tera poison), and the stupidity of Tera still stand.

Anyways, thanks for coming to my TED talk, until next time!
 
Last edited:
:persian-alola: -> B-/B

This guy is criminally underrated. It's a natural Dark type which is sorely needed in the tier with the recent departure of Grimmsnarl. It packs great physical bulk thanks to Fur Coat, backed by an amazing speed tier. It's an excellent support pokemon that can fulfill a great anti-lead role as it outspeeds most common leads and can prevent them from setting Stealth Rocks with Taunt and can spread item removal with Knock Off. It can also run Switcheroo with a choice item effectively. It also gets Parting Shot, one of the best pivoting moves in the tier, allowing it to bring in checks to the opponent's pokemon much more easily. Thunder Wave is a decent option as well. But the icing on the cake is Foul Play. The opponent's Scyther got a Swords Dance boost and is ready to sweep? Persian-A outspeeds and OHKO's with Foul Play. Decidueye? Foul Play, gone. Hariyama just got a Belly Drum? Foul Play, gone, even if it's at full HP, and +6 Bullet Punch isn't even 2HKOing without Terastalizing. It's not without it's flaws of course, I would say the two main things are it has poor special bulk which can easily be exposed by Salazzle and Jolteon which both outspeed it, and it's generally not offensively threatening on its own in matchups where it can't abuse Foul Play. But as a supportive pivoter, it's amazing. I run Heavy Duty Boots and Tera Ghost and lead with it in 95% of games and can hardly think of instances where it didn't deliver. C tier is simply too low for it.
I'd also like to shamelessly vote for my favorite mon to be ranked higher.
:decidueye: B+ -> A-/A. It's just very strong right now. It's the only common physical Ghost type in the tier while also being one of the few physical Grass types, making for a virtually unresisted STAB combination of Grass/Ghost. Ghost in general is so potent right now. Dark types are few and far between, and common Normal types like Boots Chansey and Calm Mind Dudunsparce have to fear getting 2HKO'd by +2 Leaf Blade. It can act as a spinblocker too which is nice. And it can run a variety of sets effectively. Swords Dance for a typical setup sweeper, choice band for a decent wall breaker, Defog sets (whether defensive with Knock Off or more offensive variants with Leaf Storm) are still good since the tier is desperate for good hazard control. And while there are several good special Grass types like Shaymin, Electrode-H and Rotom-Mow, choice specs Decidueye can still prove to be strong since most Decidueyes seem to be physical right now and it can catch people off guard. Decidueye started out it's SV NU campaign mainly as a supportive pokemon, but now I confidently think that it's offensive profile has gone from being niche to being very, very strong while still maintaining its ability to wield a supportive set well too.
 
Last edited:
quick noms

:Salazzle: A+ -> S
Defining offensive threat and progress-maker that only got better w the introduction of Florges, Encore is a godsend. Top 3 mon at the bare minimum and as it stands I think it's fair to reflect that w a rise. imo its just better than most of A+ by a pretty decent margin, though I think Scyther still stands way above everything else in the tier so I wouldn't mind if it kept a tier to itself.

:gligar: A -> A+
Incredibly consistent and at this point the definitive bulky ground of the tier. The longevity isn't crazy when its as prone to taking knocks as it is w the lack of recovery, but the bulk is just so good + it just has very good moves to click and some nice flexibility w them to boot.

:chansey: B - A-
Has been mentioned a hundred times already, but it does what you'd expect a pink blob to do. It's genuinely quite difficult for most special attackers to actually get past it w/o resorting to something like Trick. Going w a more conservative nom than some of the others above coz the vulnerability to hazards, the passivity, and the other generally bad traits that come w being an eviolite mon are relatively impactful flaws. Still, by all means a big defensive piece in the meta and a pretty crucial enabler of the fat stuff we've been seeing more of.

:avalugg: C -> A
Just a rly good physical wall for fat structures, naturally pairs w the chansey stuff we've seen skyrocket in usage as of late. Despite being shackled to the pretty unimpressive ice type prior to Tera, the fact it isn't passive goes such a long way. Curse sets in particular imo are pretty threatening coz quite frankly this tier is not particularly well-equipped to handle ice types. On that note,

:glastrier: B -> A
ngl it's literally just a big stick of stats, but hey it works. It hits hard w strong moves and carries obscene bulk, not much more to it. More passive squads that give the horse room to do what it wants to do will realistically get trampled. By virtue of the bulk and power it's also pretty okay into HO in that you can usually trade at the bare minimum, sometimes positively. Idt it's that crazy w tera for most of the game honestly coz unless you're at a point where your opp simply can't take out Glastrier (which is possible later into games) then it's just going to get forced out/RK'd.

:electrode-hisui: B+ -> A-
the stupid orb is good at clicking Volt Switch and serves as good speed control. Ultimately that's all it rly needs to do to function as a strong pivot, better than scarftom atm.

:Goodra: S -> A
tbh it hasn't felt like an S-worthy mon for a little bit now. I think the mon is still good, but it's not that splashable and specs in particularly takes a pretty massive hit w Florges in the tier. Idt the pre-tera Florg MU is that bad for other sets when you can realistically throw on Toxic or just annoy it w Sludge Bomb. Knock Off is also pretty annoying for Florg to take regardless of Tera so idt it's too dire.

:Rotom-Mow: A+ -> A-
don't love scarf anymore and Nasty Plot just isn't that crazy, utility sets have some merit to them. Just in a bit of an awkward spot right now and idt its really on par w the A+ or A tier mons anymore, maybe even the A- mons.

:Shaymin: A+ -> A/A-
Hard to rly place this in A+ w Scyther being as prominent as it is. Salazzle's also somewhat of a nuisance in that you're giving it free turns whenever it comes in to RK or on Seed Flare. Scarfs cool and I respect Hwish, but in general the mon tends to be a bit of an Hwish bot. Good move, but idt the mons rly A+ material rn.

:Sandaconda: A -> B+
I just don't value conda over its competition that much. It's a *fine* mon, but generally speaking I'd rather fit some1 else more often than not.

:Altaria: A -> B+
I hate passivity and this mon is the most passive do-nothing pos out there. Stats can also feel somewhat lackluster at times and while the bulk isn't atrocious, it can feel worse than ud like at times. Fwiw wisp is still pretty annoying.

:Sneasel: B+ ->
B/B-
This mon can be a threat ngl, but the poor bulk makes it a lot easier to minimize in-game. Prominence of Avalugg stuff is also pretty annoying when it doesn't really care about anything you do besides Knock pre-tera.

:Florges: NEW -> S
this mon can go 2 hell
 
After thinking over the rest of the metagame right now, here are some changes that make sense to me (I still agree with my previous votes above).

:jolteon: S -> A+/A. I'm seeing less and less of Jolteon lately, and I understand why. It hardly offers anything to a team besides it's high base speed and Electric STAB. Problem is, there are a lot of Grass and Ground types running that force Jolteon to Terastalize in order to get past. :shaymin:, :rotom-mow:, :electrode-hisui:, :decidueye:, :gligar:, :piloswine:, plus :goodra: as well. Even neutral specially invested walls like Copperajah, Florgres and Chansey require Jolteon to get at least a couple Calm Minds before Thunderbolt starts doing any threatening damage. It's still a high tier pick, but the frailty and obviousness of its playstyle in my eyes keeps it from staying in S. Jolteon nowadays feels like an afterthought when teambuilding compared to other high tier special attackers.

:rotom-mow: A+ -> B+. It just feels largely outclassed by :electrode-hisui:. For what it's worth, Scarf Trick sets will always be annoying, and it can always try to squeeze in Will-O-Wisp. But aside from that, I see little reason to use it over Electrode-H. What stinks is that if it still had Defog like last generation it could make an argument for being A- or possibly even A, but alas, it doesn't have it.

:shaymin: A+ -> A. I don't know how to feel about Shaymin. On paper it has great bulk, Seed Flare is Seed Flare, Natural Cure is awesome, and it has decent coverage, but it just can't really seem to get the ball rolling as much as it'd like. Maybe the lack of setup compared to other special attackers is what hurts it? I don't know this is a weird one, but Healing Wish will always be something.

:tatsugiri: A+ -> A-. It's just not as effective as a spinner anymore. It has the ability to be a special wall breaker with its STAB combination and Nasty Plot or a choice item, but that's all it really has right now. You might get 1 Rapid Spin off in a game, but like Segetarius said, it doesn't have any kind of bulk or longevity, so it's highly unlikely to outlast the tier's common setters. Just use :avalugg: or :coalossal: if you want a spinner, they're so much better at that, but don't write off Tatsugiri's offensive profile just yet.

:altaria: A -> B+. It's too passive, that's it. It has Defog, but unlike most other hazard clearers it lacks any kind of offensive presence. It's Perish Song set very rarely finds success either. Not the worst thing in the world, in fairness I haven't experimented much with its Dragon Dance or Choice Specs set yet, but it feels like only the 3rd best Dragon type in the tier right now.

:bronzong: A -> A-. Similar to :altaria:, it has insane passivity issues. If you want a specially defensive Steel type that can also run Stealth Rocks, use :copperajah: it's so much better and isn't weak to the omnipresent Knock Off. Still, if you're building a Trick Room team, Bronzong is there.

:sandaconda: A -> A-/B+. :gligar: took its job and hasn't apologized for it. Sandaconda still has recovery and Glare, but little else. Gligar just has so many more tools and flexbility with its kit.

:toxicroak: A -> B+. This one doesn't feel A tier at all, which is weird because it has a unique typing, Dry Skin and decent coverage. Maybe I'm underestimating it, but it seems outclassed by :tauros-paldea-blaze:, :heracross: and :hariyama: for a Fighting type and :salazzle: for a Poison type.

:gligar: A -> A+. It's the premier Ground type. It has every hazard available barring Sticky Webs. It has Knock Off, Toxic and U-Turn for good support and pivoting. Swords Dance sets can definitely catch people unaware. It's bulk is still decent even after it loses it's Eviolite to an inevitable Knock Off. It's just arguably the most splashable pokemon right now, with it's only real drawback being that it has no way to recover health.

:electrode-hisui: B+ -> A-. Feels pretty strong. It somewhat lacks in raw power, but it makes up for it with it's blistering speed tier and STAB Leaf Storm, and Static is decent too.

:piloswine: A- -> A. I feel like this one is still somewhat underrated. It's of course a decent Stealth Rocks setter, and it's of course surprisingly strong; Ground/Ice STAB is nice. This one could also potentially be a decent defensive backbone on snow teams. Snow + Aurora Veil + Eviolite + Thick Fat makes this thing so fat, but the main drawback is it lacks recovery and it can be prone to hazard chip with Eviolite. Still, it's a great pokemon albeit a bit within :gligar:'s shadow.

:avalugg: C -> A. Everyone has said it, it's arguably the best hazard clearer right now. If you give it a solid special wall partner, it can be very tough to beat, and it has recovery and decent muscle too, just try not to lose your boots in hazard-heavy games.

:chansey: B -> A-. While it has it's own passivity issues, it's still great right now. I don't think it's *quite* as good as some people are claiming, since it's in a dilemma of choosing Eviolite's extra bulk or Heavy Duty Boots to not be so susceptible to hazard chip. But it does offer a variety of great tools, including Stealth Rocks and Thunder Wave. And Heal Bell especially gives it a unique role as the tier's sole cleric, which is helpful if the opponent's :salazzle: is spreading Toxic everywhere.

:bruxish: A -> A+. It's a top 5 offensive threat right now. Wave Crash/Liquidation + Psychic Fangs already tears through much of the tier, and you can add whatever you need to the rest of its kit, whether Flip Turn, Crunch, Ice Fang, Aqua Jet, even Swords Dance if you don't want to run its generic Choice Scarf/Band sets.


And for the newest drops.

:drifblim: A/A-. It's a great supportive mon that packs Defog, Strength Sap, and your choice of Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave. But don't underestimate Unburden sets either.

:florges: S. Not only is it one of the only Fairy types, but it's easily the best. Calm Mind sets are threatening (just be mindful of :salazzle:), and Choice Specs sets make it immediately threatening even before you throw Trick in. The only set I'm not crazy about is Wish + Protect. It just feels like it wants a fifth moveslot with that set, but it can still work as a Wish passer if you wanted.

:klefki: A-/B+. It does face competition from :florges: as a Fairy type, but it does do completely different things, from Spikes, Thunder Wave, and Stored Power sets can steamroll teams that aren't prepared for it.

:sandslash-alola: B+. It won't be used outside of Snow teams, but it can be fearsome on such teams.

:vikavolt: B. Sticky Webs just isn't a viable playstyle right now, but it does still have an awesome special attack stat and decent offensive coverage between Thunderbolt/Bug Buzz/Energy Ball. Could be very strong on Trick Room teams with its low speed, Spikes immunity and unique typing, but otherwise I don't really see it being used over :jolteon:, :electrode-hisui:, or even :rotom-mow:.
 
Big VR UPDATE
(Reasonings will be added in time)
(someone with perms will modify OP soon)
NEW
:Drifblim: -> B (Was already falling off before it left temporarily and still struggles with its recovery being denied by Goodra, regardless still hazard control and good hazard control in a meta with few options for the role)
:Florges: -> S (Versatile with Scarf, Specs, Wish Support, or CM Bulky Sweeper sets. This pokemon requires attention in the builder otherwise your team may get steamrolled by CM Setup. Fairy-typing is very useful and Florges has the stats to utilize that typing)
:Klefki: -> A (Another Fairy-type for the tier. This pokemon's utility sets are really annoying and great at getting hazards up. The typing also gives a good resist to Scyther, one of the best Pokemon in the tier. The ID CM sets exist, but I don't think they are that great.)
:Sandslash-Alola: -> B+ (This pokemon validates the Snow team archetype. It has the coverage, speed, and power to rip through teams. It's held back by requiring a subpar partner and relatively poor longevity with LO. Outside of Snow, it has the possiblity of being a unique hazard control choice, however I have yet to see this in action.)
:Vikavolt: -> B- (This pokemon has little going for it that the other Electric-types don't already do.)
:Typhlosion: UR -> UR (Eruption is very strong, but relying on keeping Rocks off to maintain its power is a tall order.)
Rises
:Salazzle: A+ -> S (Great speed tier, offensive typing, and utility. Very useful against Florges, a dominant presence in the Meta with Encore. Nasty Plot is very difficult to consistently fend off, and Knock Off helps it make progress for itself or its teammates.)
:Bruxish: A -> A+ (Best scarfer in the tier, Flip Turn gives it momentum and Psychic Fangs is ridiculously strong. Losing Grimmsnarl means there's one less natural immunity in the tier stopping it from cleaning)
:Gligar: A -> S (Very consistent utility pokemon with the coveted ability to block Volt Switch)
:Articuno-Galar: A- -> A (Bulky CM sets have caught attention, using its high BST to muscle through opponents. DoubleDance sets are still scary and can sweep with a free turn)
:Decidueye: B+ -> A- (SD Shadow Sneak murders the offensive pokemon of the tier and Poltergeist has few resists/immunities. A bit frail, which makes setting up sometimes a challenge. I havent seen bulky sets in a while, but it does have recovery and defog!)
:Electrode-Hisui: B+ -> A- (Incredible speed tier allows it to run Modest to make up for sub-par power. Being able to hit groun-types withoutTera is a niche it has over jolteon, however it can't set up for itself. Its ability can frustrate the opponent and it has interesting utility options like FoulPlay, Taunt and Twave)
:Chansey: B -> A (One of the pillars of the fat balance team structures that have been having success lately. This shutsdown alot of the opponents offensive ideas, although it is passive and therefore susceptible to being taken advantage of.
:Glastrier: B -> A (Incredible breaker of Fat and is a cool option for offensive teams that need a pokemon that can Trade with an opponents threat.)
:Ditto: B- -> B+ (Offense, setup, and weather are strong which makes ditto fantastic for rounding out a bulky team scared of a setup breaker.)
:Froslass: B- -> B (Idk, spikes lead is cool I guess)
:Mesprit: B- -> A- (This thing is doing what it was doing before all these big meta changes. Setup sets are still dangerous and help break the Chansey/Lugg core)
:Muk: B- -> B
:Skuntank: B- -> B+ (We lost our best Dark-type, Skuntank tries to fill that space. It has a useful typing and moves that make it useful on many teams.
:Avalugg: C -> A+ (This took a long time to earn respect but has now taken off. This pokemon is an excellent abuser of terastilize, removing its poor typing for something more useful. Rapid Spin is great utility whilst Curse sets are incredible win conditions in a meta with so many physical attackers.
:Persian-Alola: C -> B (Really useful speed tier that lets it check many physical offensive threats with Foul Play.)
:Volbeat: C -> B- (Prankster weather setting with Encore and Uturn to help faciliate the rest of the team. Probably the best manual setter we have)
Drops
:Goodra: S -> A+ (Florges and Klefki mean this can't spam Specs Dracos like it used to. Still an incredible pokemon with lots of utility)
:Jolteon: S -> A+ (Still very good, just doesn't command the meta like it used to. The shift to bulkier teams as well Florges has made it struggle to CM Sweep. Pivoting into a breaker is still very potent though.)
:Rotom-Mow: A+ -> A (Great pokemon, but the other A+ pokemon are more commanding of the tier)
:Shaymin: A+ -> A
:Tatsugiri: A+ -> A- (Super frail which makes it hard to use. Goodra gives it a lot of competition)
:Altaria: A -> B (This thing is way too passive with not enough bulk to justify it. Still though, it has Defog....)
:Bronzong: A -> A-
:Qwilfish: A -> A-
:Sandaconda: A -> B (The other ground-types are just better. Its hard to find situations in which you'd rather use Sandaconda anymore. Coil is still special)
:Magneton: A- -> B
:Passimian: A- -> B- (One of the more drastic drops. Passimian is just outclassed by the other fighting-type options. Being able to pivot with its Choice Scarf set is its only niche which hasn't proved useful enough to justify over slapping a scarf on the others.
:Bombirdier: B+ -> B
:Naclstack: B+ -> B-
:Orthworm: B+ -> B
:Sandslash: B+ -> B
:Sneasel: B+ -> B-
:Arboliva: B -> B-
:Indeedee: B -> B-
:Primeape: B -> B-
:Qwilfish-Hisui: B -> B-
:Uxie: B -> B-
:Weezing: B -> B-
:Lurantis: B- -> C
:Oricorio-Pau: B- -> C
:Samurott: B- -> C
Removed
:Sneasel-Hisui: B -> UR
:Appletun: C -> UR
:Charizard: C -> UR
:Golem-Alola: C -> UR
:Haunter: C -> UR
:Leafeon: C -> UR
:Probopass: C -> UR
:Pyroar: C -> UR
:Scovillain: C -> UR
:Ursaring: C -> UR
:Typhlosion: C -> UR (Eruption is very strong, but relying on keeping Rocks off to maintain its power is a tall order.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Feels kinda weird that Abomasnow wasn't ranked, but Hippopotas is still languishing around in B- rank. Feels like you might as well chuck out Hippopotas if you're gonna say that Abomasnow isn't good enough to be ranked. Just throwing them both in C rank would make the most sense, even if I think Abomasnow is better then baby Hippo and should be in B- at least
 
Feels kinda weird that Abomasnow wasn't ranked, but Hippopotas is still languishing around in B- rank. Feels like you might as well chuck out Hippopotas if you're gonna say that Abomasnow isn't good enough to be ranked. Just throwing them both in C rank would make the most sense, even if I think Abomasnow is better then baby Hippo and should be in B- at least
It was missed on the slate, i noticed while writing the update. It should be something like B/B+ since thats where Alolan Slash is.
 
It was missed on the slate, i noticed while writing the update. It should be something like B/B+ since thats where Alolan Slash is.
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, B or B+ is basically where I fell on it after my time using Snow teams, so I have 0 issues with that placement, just was a bit confused at first
 
I'll make two nominations in this post.

1700007032584.png
C/B-: As Salazzle and Pauros-Blaze have demonstrated, Fire types can be very potent in NU, especially the specially offensive ones, like Lazzle. Houndoom finds itself in a rather unique spot, as it is almost entirely outclassed by Salazzle, which has access to a phenomenal speed tier, many amazing support moves, as well as a powerful offensive presence. Even then, Doom can pull off some stuff Lazzle can't. I'm refering specifically to Sucker Punch and Destiny Bond. Doom's base 90 atk stat has been reason enough to use it mixed in the past. Sucker Punch is a nice form of priority, and has a bonus of surprise factor, as people tend to see Domm as a NP sweeper only. With enough investment, Doom can outrun the tier defining Bruxish, and KO it, with some atk investment, after a single switch into SR/1 layer of spikes. This means it's almost never threatened by scarf or aqua jet versions of Brux (proof: 24 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bruxish: 244-291 (88 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes/ 24 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bruxish: 244-291 (88 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). SP guarantees Scarf Hoopa is never revenge killing you when in base typing, while also being helpfull against faster threats that have been weakened, like Salazzle, Jolteon, +1 speed Tatsuguiri and very low HP Scyther (24 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 140-165 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; 24 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 140-165 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; 24 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scyther: 110-133 (39.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO; 24 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tatsugiri: 140-165 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Destiny Bond is a neat option, as it makes Doom punish the likes Goodra that thinks it can switch in for minal damage and then deal some on the team. If Doom can force Goodra to go down, stuff like Salazzle and Jolteon become much more dangerous. Doom's Fire Blast with a life orb is even stronger than Lazzle's, and Dark Pulse can prove to be reliable coverage against the likes of Coalossal (tho it's not hit that hard: 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Coalossal: 165-195 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), Qwilfish (252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Qwilfish: 242-286 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and Gligar (252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 144-172 (43.1 - 51.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock). Other options like Taunt, NP and Crunch can be considered over Destiny Bond, but I believe DBond to be the better choice. I believe Doom is hard to fit on teams, only really fitting on very aggressive, hazard oriented teams that really chip down the opposition. In these archetypes, it can either help wallbreak for the likes of Salazzle and Jolteon, or clean-up late game, tho the first option is the more likely. It also has to run Life Orb, or else it's too weak to really achieve anything. Even with all the negatives, I think it's worth a thought.

1700010745209.png
C/B-: Beartic really is a very niche choice, on what can be considered a very niche archetype, which is snow. It really is very much optional, as it's not super fast, even after a Slush Rush boost, with common scarfers like Bruxish outrunning it. It's bulk is very impressive tho, especially when factoring in the snow def boost. It's power is also really astonishing, much more so after a SD. If it has enough support and can afford to drop Boots, Dice/Never-Melt Ice Beartic can really put a dent on many teams. It has very powerful Ice Stab, and CC is good coverage, especially if it runs the tera Fighting set, only really missing out on Qwilfish. Aqua Jet can be used to punish revenge kill attempts from the likes of Salazzle after Snow ends. Avalugg may seem like a perfect answer, as it also benefits from the snow def. boost, but CC still does heavy damage, and if Lugg teras out of the ice type, it loses the def boost and becomes susceptible to Beartic's Ice stab. For those reasons, I believe Beartic deserves the mentioned ranking.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top